086 – How We’re Using Podcasts For Our Clients In Financial Services

086 - How We're Using Podcasts For Our Clients In Financial Services
086 - How We're Using Podcasts For Our Clients In Financial Services

Alex:
Hello and welcome back to the Advisors Assemble Podcast, formerly known as Lead Generation for Financial Services. So you’re in the right place if that was what you were expecting. You might be able to hear rain, slash hail, in my background. I’m not sure if it’s coming through, Tom.

Tom:
Can’t hear it, mate. But you’ll be pleased to hear blue skies over here.

Alex:
Yeah, I’m not actually. You did just say that, and that’s a bit annoying.

Tom:
Yeah. I’m [inaudible 00:00:35] 30 miles as the crow flies, so yeah, that is a bit unfortunate.

Alex:
So hopefully the wind is blowing in your direction and you can get it. We’re recording on a Friday, rather than having a nice cold beer on a Friday night outside, you can have some hail.

Tom:
Turn the heating on, yeah.

Alex:
Excellent, right. So this time around we wanted to share our strategy for using podcasts for clients. And I guess it might be worth explaining, talking about how it came about, how we started doing it, and how it’s very, very different from how we use a podcast ourself, isn’t it? Completely different.

Alex:
Because normally when you think podcast, you think it’s something that I subscribe to that I listen to every week. We’ve got, obviously, this podcast goes out weekly, people subscribe and listen in.

Alex:
And what we do is completely different, I think. Most of our clients are mortgage brokers. That’s like, not a one-off purchase, it’s maybe every couple of years, isn’t it, with your remortgage and stuff. I think most people would be thinking, “Well who’s going to subscribe to a podcast for mortgages?” And I think they’re right, that people won’t. But that’s not how we’re using it.

Alex:
So we’ll explain all that, if I’m talking any sense. How we’re using it for social media, and it’s become quite a big part of our service now, hasn’t it?

Tom:
Yeah. It’s really good for a number of reasons, from what you said. But it helps brokers do something a little bit different. That’s the thing, to whilst, say if we’re doing podcasts with a reasonable number of them, the content is different for each one. And the stuff you get out of each one, and one remortgage podcast is different to another one. It’s amazing really, how each one does different between them.

Tom:
We tend to get, it takes, what, about a 10, even if it’s a 10, 15, 20-minute conversation. We can get upwards of 10 to 20 social posts out of that, from just the snippets and little value bombs. And also the content, once we get them transcribed, the content is great for SEO, because it tends to flow quite nicely, as you would expect it to, because it’s quite conversational. And all the content is completely original. And it’s also up to date. It ticks quite a lot of boxes.

Alex:
And we found it obviously very useful during lockdown for when there’s an immediate change in circumstances. So we did quite well with people explaining what their … We did bits on the payments holidays, we did bits on what your options are if your deal is coming to an end, or if you were thinking of moving already.

Alex:
There was someone talking about, rather than going on the SVR, there was, I think it was a building society that had a no redemption penalty. And the interest rate wasn’t amazing, but it was lower than the SVR. So that was a temporary solution. The way that advisor explained it, and it wasn’t, again I think anyone that’s listened to us for a while would know that we don’t do sales pitches, or we don’t believe you should be pitching it as a sales proposition. If you educate people, show that you are actually interested in them and care about them, that they’ll make the decision to call you.

Alex:
So during lockdown really, we’ve gone into overdrive on doing these, haven’t we?

Tom:
Yeah. And as we say, the more we’ve done, the more value we’ve been able to get out of them. In terms of, like we’ve said, the content, the social stuff. It’s just a really efficient way to get that sort of information. So yeah, it’s been really, really good.

Alex:
And then I think it was 15 minutes of conversation as well, that transcription will get us … What is it coming out? It’s at least 1000 words article as well.

Tom:
Yeah, I was going to say, at least. In terms of if you were writing that, and that could easily take you at least … I know on the transcriptions we have to optimize them and whatnot, but to get 1000 words written, depending on what you’re doing, you’re talking anywhere between a few hours to half a day. And we get that in a 15, 20-minute, half an hour conversation.

Tom:
So there is a bit of work obviously that needs to go into getting it doctored. Because obviously the way we speak doesn’t necessarily naturally transfer over to the way it’s written. So whilst it can be quite conversational, there’s lots of things like erms and ands and likes, and you know what I means, stuff that’s naturally right, but just comes as part of conversation without you noticing it. There are a few changes that obviously go with it, but on the whole it’s a really efficient way to get a lot of good quality content.

Alex:
Absolutely. Much easier than starting from scratch, certainly. Like getting a blank canvas.

Tom:
Yes.

Alex:
I think there’s two ways we’ve been looking at it. If it’s part of the content plan, if we’ve identified a search term, like if somebody’s googling something, and we want to create some content, part of our SEO strategy is to create Q&A. They ask, you answer. It’s as simple as that in terms of content for SEO.

Alex:
So it’s like we’re doing, before lockdown and as part of our SEO strategy, we were fine doing the basic keyword research. Now we’re taking the opportunities to answer and create the content. Not just get one of our content writers to write an article on it, we’re getting that information from the advisor themselves.

Alex:
So it’s kind of like it’s all normally compliant, because the advisors know what they’re talking about. And then I think like you said, it’s unique for each person. We’re getting that personality across. And I think we’ve spent years trying to get advisors to do videos. And some of them are. You see people are, especially now. You’ve got your Thomas Honors. Obviously Ash was a machine when he was a mortgage broker. Loads of them doing it.

Alex:
But there was still … I think everyone’s still a bit like, you put a camera in front of someone, they behave differently to normal life. And what I’m finding doing these interviews with the advisors is that you haven’t got that apprehension, or you’re not worried so much about how you come across. They’re used to talking all time.

Alex:
So I find it pretty much every one, haven’t you found everyone, they’ve all come across really well on the podcast episodes? Whereas sometimes with the videos it’s easy … Especially I remember when I first started doing video, it was really wooden.

Tom:
Yeah, definitely. In terms of taking that visual element out of it, just totally removes so much of the fear. And a lot of the podcast, it’s almost no different to how a client call may go. If someone was to ring up a broker and ask them some questions, the broker should obviously always be able to reel off the answers seamlessly, and it would be really natural.

Tom:
And it’s exactly the same here. We’re not asking brokers any difficult questions. They are difficult questions in the sense for normal people. For mortgage brokers, they just know the answers, and they just reel it off right off the back of their hand. It’s really good from that perspective. It just totally removes the fear, all of them have been good.

Tom:
And I think people are sometimes surprised at how natural they feel on a podcast. They almost forget that they are just having a conversation, as if it was with someone face to face or on a phone.

Alex:
And then from a listener’s point of view, and we’ll talk about, I think people are probably thinking, “Oh, how am I going to get my clients to go on iTunes or whatever?” These podcast episodes are embedded, just like you would embed a YouTube video. So it’s on your website.

Alex:
So on your web page you go to … The last one I did was a Help To Buy thing. In fact, you gave me the questions, because people asked those questions on Google, didn’t you? You sent me a list of five or six questions. [Visik 00:07:27] knew all the answers. And we done it in like 10 minutes.

Alex:
Then what we’ll do is create a page on their website, what you need to know about Help To Buy, or the Help To Buy, whatever it is. The podcast player is embedded on the page exactly the same way you would do a YouTube thing. So in terms of the user thing, they’re search Help To Buy. If we get that page position one for Help To Buy, they’ll click on that, land on that. And they’ve got the opportunity to read the article like they normally would. And/or listen in to the advisor answering those questions.

Alex:
And if you’re searching it, it means you’re looking into Help To Buy, so why wouldn’t you spend 10 minutes listening? And then the other benefit over a video is, I think they can listen whilst still looking through the website or doing something else. I think that’s the big key, for me. Because people listen to podcasts during the gym, or driving or whatever. They can stick that on and then open another tab and look at other stuff. And you can multi-task with audio, can’t you?

Tom:
Yeah. And I think whilst we say we don’t expect anyone to necessarily subscribe to a podcast, podcasts and audiobooks are just becoming more and more popular. So people are just getting used to doing that.

Tom:
I use myself, not that you should always take examples from your own experiences, but in terms of I listen to audiobooks. I’m not huge on the podcast side of things, but I’m used to listening to audiobooks now, and I’m used to listening to some podcasts. And if I then now see that as a medium, it doesn’t strike me as odd. I find it a more natural thing to do now.

Tom:
It’s just one of those things, that people get more and more used to it. But yeah, it is very convenient to anyone. Like you said, reading the article, sticking the headphones in and listening to article, and navigating the site, it is quite good from a usability point of view.

Alex:
And then I can’t stress it enough, it’s so much easier for a consumer, who’s never heard of your brand before. Because we do have some building societies and things like that listening to us, but the majority of the listeners are an SME or self-employed, or a solo broker or whatever. The more they get to know you as a person, and they can hear you having this conversation, your knowledgeable, you know what you’re talking about, the barrier to making that phone call, or wanting that phone call, is vastly reduced.

Alex:
Because they’ve built a bit of trust, a bit of rapport, by listening in to you for 10 minutes, helping you helping them out on what they need to know. And then when they’re ready, they’re more likely to just either ask the question, if there’s a form on that page. Or if it’s a few days later or a couple of weeks later, they’re more likely to remember you, because they’ve listened to you, than just all these stock-image-heavy websites that they go across.

Tom:
Yeah, it’s a huge credibility piece with it, isn’t it? In terms of that’s why we do a lot of the question and answer site, so people can feel comfortable if you have a question. Or sorry, if a customer has a question, that you are going to be able to answer it. And then in terms of when you think that complements it with any review stuff you do, if you do the Google reviews or the TrustPilot and everything else like that.

Tom:
It all forms part of that trust and credibility that we need to build. I mean I remember we started talking about it ages and ages ago. In terms of start building that trust before they’ve picked up the phone. And this just totally complements it. To a point it actually becomes a really big part of it. They know you, they know who you are on the phone.

Tom:
And I think you’ve probably seen it, Alex, a bit from your own podcast. Conversations that you have when people ring us about whether they want to chat through what they can do with us, or just asking for advice. It’s a much warmer conversation. People have a much better idea of what we do, what we’re about. They know what to expect on the call.

Tom:
And it’s such a better conversation to have, rather than someone just stumbling around a bit, not really sure what to ask. It’s just a much better conversation on both ends. As the user, who’s also the potential customer, is already half-armed with the information anyway. It’s actually the point where they actually know what questions to ask. Rather than coming in and saying, “Well, I don’t really know what I’m doing.” They’re armed with a little bit more knowledge. It just produces a much better initial conversation with a potential customer.

Alex:
Million percent for us. When we were working together where we first met, you hired me as a contractor. I didn’t have any staff, I was self-employed. And I was in fact, I got the contract from you because I applied for, you had a job out.

Tom:
Yeah, that’s right.

Alex:
And I applied for the job by saying, “I can’t come in full-time, but I’m …” This was how I got clients at the time. It’s like I was waiting for jobs, my pitch was, “I’ve got this experience.” Because at that point I had over 10 years experience. So you can get me for one day or two days a week for less than someone full-time, I’ll get a lot more done, it will be much easier.

Alex:
Because I didn’t know how to get clients myself, because I was doing the same thing. I had the Lead Engine brand. And I think at one point I had an illustration done of me. Someone even had my photo. I think I did an animated one as well, which was quite cool. But I was just getting nothing.

Alex:
And the conversations that I was having, people were like, “Can you do PPC?” And I’ll be like, “Yeah.” And I’ll quote, and they’ll be like, “Well, I’ve been quoted less. Someone else, like Dave, will do it for less.” And I had nothing other than, “Yeah, but I’ve been doing it for 10 years. How long has he been doing it?” “I don’t know, but he can do it, and he’ll do it cheaper. So I’m going to try it with him first, and then maybe I’ll …”

Alex:
I was easily forgettable. Whereas now, like you say, people know who I am from the podcast. We’ve just been giving lots of … Like we’re doing now, we’re just sharing our experiences and our knowledge. Because we specialize, we let people know our personality, things like that. So yeah, you’re absolutely right. The conversations I have are so much easier. And they already know pretty much what we do, and that we’re pretty good at it, if we do say so ourselves.

Alex:
So we’re just trying to replicate that same thing for advisors. Obviously it’s toned down. Like we’ve had people listening to podcasts for a year. And then they’d ring up and say, “I’ve been listening for a year.” Whereas with the mortgage ones they’ll search, listen and inquire. So they’ve listened a bit, so it’s slightly toned down.

Alex:
But they still get just as strong, I think. They’re searching for that specific thing, and that specific moment. You’ve proved to them, you’ve earned the right to the conversation, because you’ve proved to them that you’ve got the knowledge and you can answer the questions they’ve got.

Alex:
And I think that’s what a lot of websites at the minute just don’t do. They just say, “Look, we can help you remortgage, we can do your protection.” I don’t think enough websites earn the right to have the conversation.

Tom:
Yeah, that’s right. And yeah, interesting you saying how it works for us, and it’s different. In terms of when you think about what we do, ours is sort of in a way providing essentially marketing advice on the podcast. Business and marketing advice.

Tom:
So it’s really case of, people are always going to want, or want to do more marketing, or understand how to do more leads. That’s going to be an ongoing basis. Whereas in terms of needing or wanting a mortgage, that is probably once every two to five years. And that’s almost the difference.

Tom:
That’s why ours is positioned slightly differently. Oh, you’ll be pleased to hear it’s hailing over here now.

Alex:
Brilliant. Yes! And it’s stopped here now.

Tom:
Yeah. Positioned slightly differently in terms of that’s why ours is slightly different, in terms of trying to get those subscribers. There is more of a value to us in having those subscribers listening almost week in, week out, which is very different to how the brokers potentially do it for their podcast.

Tom:
Because it’s just a certain period of time, or a certain moment in time. Every two to five years, or whatever it is. So ours is positioned slightly differently from an objective point of view.

Alex:
I think it works, like the easiest way to generate a lead using a podcast is following that SEO model, or using Google Ads. So finding what people search for. They think of it as Q&A. They’re searching for a question, essentially. Whether the question be “mortgage broker London,” or whether that be, “Can I get a mortgage if I’ve got CCJ?”

Alex:
If on that page they can find the answer to it and build some trust and rapport with you, why wouldn’t they? If you’ve come across as a knowledgeable, friendly advisor, rather than a salesperson, why wouldn’t they speak to you over anyone else?

Alex:
But then for social media you can use that same content, repurpose it, to not build that following, but the more consistent you are getting content out there, you are likely to pick some up as well. But for me it’s getting people on search and ads, really, is the big one.

Tom:
Yeah, definitely. But I know we have touched on it, but in terms of using that podcast, in terms of that content for social. For us, in terms of the people we work with, it helps us to get them in the right frame of mind.

Tom:
In the sense that, one of the things we often get asked, and it’s probably my least favorite question, is how many times should we post on social media? And the answer is, as frequently as you can produce good quality content. It’s important to remember things like email and Facebook, they are just channels. I say “just,” they’re powerful. But they are channels, they are tools. What really matters is what you’re putting out there.

Tom:
It’s almost the equivalent of saying, “There’s a billboard over there, I’m going to put something on it.” Why are you doing that? Or what are you putting on, is it valuable? Do you know what I mean?

Alex:
Yeah.

Tom:
And it’s remembering that the key to all of this, podcasts, and then feeding out to the social and then obviously a big part of the SEO, is the content plan. It’s thinking about what are you talking about, what are people searching for, what are their problems that they need answering.

Tom:
And have that start, that’s the base, and then it filters out over everything else. The SEO content that goes on the website, podcasts, and everything else like that. But yeah, the podcast is a great way for us to get a lot of good quality social posts out there in a reasonable amount of time.

Alex:
Absolutely. And then you can bring this all the way back. This is probably one of the reasons why people go on about niching a lot. Because then it makes it really easy to identify who your client is. People call it an avatar, I’m doing bunny ears.

Alex:
Because then when you know exactly who your client is, you know exactly what problems they have, you can tailor those answers. That is exactly why we do lead generation for financial services, rather than lead generation for everyone.

Alex:
And because I think we have got less competition now than we would do if we did it for everyone. Because we work with, all of or clients are in that space, we get to know them. So it’s easier for us to create this content, because we’ve tailored it.

Alex:
Again, it’s the same thing. I was just speaking to Omar, who was on the podcast a few weeks ago, he has specialized in helping people with adverse credit, bad credit, credit issues. He knows exactly who his consumer is, so it’s really easy for him to create content.

Alex:
I suppose, hopefully that provides a bit of context on why people say you should find your niche. Because it just makes it easier. And then you could start, and someone said to me, go out hunting with a spear, but your website can still be a net. You don’t have to do what David Sharp has done, he’s got CISmortgage.co.uk. You don’t necessarily have to do that.

Alex:
But when you go hunting, when you’re creating content, try not to make it for anyone and everyone. I think it’s less powerful, less people will listen. So it’s kind of like by trying to catch more, you catch less I think.

Tom:
Yeah. We like it from an SEO point of view in terms of it is a case of fighting battles that you’re going to win. Or more likely to win, should I say. You think about a niche maybe that gets 5000 Google searches a month. If you can get 10% of that traffic, if you can rank well for it, get 10% of that traffic, 10% of 5000 is better than 0% of a million, if you were trying to do a general remortgage. Because chances are you aren’t going to rank for that.

Tom:
So yeah, we certainly like it from an overall digital marketing point of view. Whether that’s SEO, or from a branding point of view. It’s easier to brand yourself as a specialist in a certain area. And it does, again talking about websites and digital marketing, it does improve website conversion rates. Those websites that we work with that are a specialist brand for specialist keywords, unsurprisingly turn visitors into leads more efficiently than more general websites.

Alex:
I still think people struggle with that. I can’t remember how much I struggled with it in the beginning. You’re hesitant to close off customers, aren’t you? But the funny thing is, we picked up a cricket manufacturer after officially we only work with lead generation for financial services.

Alex:
Because people will say, “Can you do what you do for me in my business?” Because we met in the canteen at the business center. Your black book aren’t going to be like, “Oh, he doesn’t do remortgages for me anymore.” I don’t think you will.

Alex:
And you can always communicate to your existing client. If you were anything and everything and you’ve got a black book of people that you’ve done anything and everything for, you can still communicate with them differently, on email. I’ve rebranded the Japanese knotweed mortgage expert, but just so you know, I’m still going to look after you, et cetera. You can put that email out there, can’t you?

Tom:
Yeah, that’s right. And this comes down to a bit in terms of understanding the size of your niche. I know we talk about this a lot, but it’s the size of the niche. For us, we could essentially do what we do over any industry, but we like financial services because it’s what we have the most experience in, before deciding to niche into it anyway.

Tom:
And then we think, yeah, the potential customers we could work with are probably the size of the businesses and have the potential for income from what we do to make it good for everybody. Whereas if you thought, okay, there are other niches. Let’s say, off the top of my head, horse box manufacturers, that niche is too small for us, most likely.

Alex:
I love that niche. That reminds me of Cover My Wheels.

Tom:
That’s exactly why I said it. A niche which was too small, because we did have to try. So I can tell you now, from a digital marketing perspective, it is too small. And it is a case of that’s why we like looking at search volumes. Because it lets us know what people search for, in terms of various niches. Or certainly perceived niches, where people think they might be ripe for a specialized product. That specialized product may not exist, but it doesn’t stop people searching for it anyway.

Alex:
I think we’re slightly veering away from the topic of the podcast, but it’s all good stuff. And to be honest, a lot of these things, podcast is just a form of content. So one thing I wanted to pick up, there’s a guy, I’ve forgotten his name. But he created, it was one of the most popular articles on Quora.

Tom:
Yeah.

Alex:
Or something. And the article, it was quite a short one, it said best practice should be called average practice. And his point was that, like you said, when people look at the best practice of how many times should I post a day, and people say seven on Twitter, it’s the content that’s important.

Alex:
Like I post on LinkedIn at most once a week. But then, I don’t want to sound arrogant, Tom, but I get quite a few likes and stuff. But I see other people hammering stuff out daily, and they don’t. So for me it was more impactful to get one out and get X amount of likes, rather than tumbleweed on sending out seven.

Alex:
Because I think people should spend more time focusing on what they’re going to create, what they’re going to say, rather than all the, I’m doing bunny ears again, “best practices.”

Tom:
Yeah, you’re right. But best practices is just what everyone else is doing.

Alex:
Average practices, we’re going to call from now on. So what kind of reaction, we’ve had some decent … I know in our proposal we’ve got a case study of one of the early podcasts we did where it went out, I think it was talking about the remortgage options for the COVID stuff.

Tom:
Yeah.

Alex:
And I think on average, I’m pulling these numbers off the top of my head, I think on average they were getting interaction rates of 4% or something like that.

Tom:
Yeah.

Alex:
In terms of likes, shares, comments, whatever. And then I think that particular one got a 17% interaction rate.

Tom:
Yeah, that’s exactly it. Sorry, 17% up from 4%. 4% was the average over all of their content stuff. But that COVID remortgaging podcast, it was very current, very topical. The topic of the content was, as we say, very relevant, so that helps.

Tom:
And then yeah, in terms of the medium of the podcast. And obviously you can put stickers of podcasts in social posts. But basically you would click on the post and it would take you to the page where the podcast was. And it was as simple as that. So the actual construction of the post wasn’t really much different from other posts we’ve done. We’re just saying that this content is in a podcast.

Tom:
Had we said, we’ve done a guide, or we’ve written an article, not that we’d obviously word it that way on the post, but in terms of saying we’ve driven … Or put the post out with a link to just the content, without mentioning the podcast, we probably would have had engagement rates of maybe just slightly more than 4%. But it wouldn’t have been anywhere near the 17% we did see.

Tom:
And it’s almost like it feels like it’s because the podcast almost makes it better quality content also. Because people feel like it’s more well invested. You know, people think, “Oh right, a lot of effort’s gone into that, it’ll be good.”

Tom:
And also the podcast, we know how to do it, but a lot of people perhaps wouldn’t. So it feels like it’s quite a technical thing to do. Just the overall engagement rate on the podcast posts do tend to be a lot better.

Tom:
And on emails as well. My open rates on emails are really good. The thing that people are always guilty of on email marketing is just trying to sell in an inbox. I’m not sure anyone has ever bought anything from an email. But they do buy them from websites. Whether that’s clothes or anything, or mortgage advice.

Alex:
Certainly from a stranger.

Tom:
Yes, that’s right. Certainly from a stranger. In terms of it’s all a case of you’ve got to drive them back to the website. And doing that, putting it out as content, the same we do with social posts. Not selling in the inbox, put them to the website, and then if they turn into leads on the website, then great.

Tom:
Which we see they actually quite often do when we put podcast content out there, because the podcast drives them onto the website. The click rate is higher, the open rate is higher. And even if the conversion rate may be slightly lower than some of the other sales emails. And the output of leads is greater, because the funnel is bigger. More opens, more clicks. Maybe a lower conversion rate to lead, but the output’s always far, far higher.

Alex:
The benefits of getting more people to the website as well. So let’s say we’ve got 17% of people that’s seen it have either liked it or, can’t remember what the actual click-through rates were, but let’s say we’re getting more clicks to the website. That means we can get more people in our remarketing audience, and we can readvertise to them very, very cheaply on things like Facebook, on LinkedIn.

Alex:
So that’s why I love one thing Chris Tucker said as well. [inaudible 00:25:18] One guy was asking me on one of those webinars, I don’t want a website, I want to use my LinkedIn profile, and I don’t like this idea of building on rented ground. You own the website. Anyone going there, you can create those audiences and you own them.

Alex:
And he wanted us to do SEO stuff for his LinkedIn profile. With things like Tik Tok emerging, I said to him, “What happens if there’s like a Tinder for business?” Like someone makes an app that really simplifies LinkedIn, a bit like Instagram did to Facebook. It just took one element of Facebook, the images, and made an app out of it. WhatsApp took one element of Facebook and created WhatsApp. Although Facebook’s still around, what happens if someone creates a better LinkedIn and that comes out next week, and you’ve invested a load of time in SEO?

Alex:
So again, I’m steering away from the point. But if we get more people to our website, then there’s more things we can do. I think remarketing is such a strong way of keeping in contact. Yes, you are paying, but it is not a lot. I think we’ve talked about this before. The majority of people that listen to our podcast I would say only need to spend 30 to 60, less than £100 a month on remarketing, that the return on investment I think is pretty good.

Tom:
With remarketing it’s one of those, particularly we find it does, because the lead time between someone first seeing our website, listening to our podcast, and actually potentially becoming a client, can be months. If not longer.

Tom:
We’ve had some that say, “Oh yeah, I’ve been following what you’re doing for a year and a half or something.” And you think, wow, that’s a long lead time from start to finish. And with mortgages, it could be a similar sort of thing. Maybe not quite as long. Particularly if somebody’s in the market, or their deal is ending, they’ve got six months.

Tom:
That’s six months, potentially, from them getting their letter from the banks saying your deal’s up, to them actually needing to think, “Right, this needs to be sorted by then.” That’s a long time to be able to capture them within that six months timeframe. And that’s a lot of content you can get in front of them within that timeframe.

Tom:
And yeah, you just almost need to, with remarketing from that point of view, just trust the process. And it does come quite good. It’s not one where you look at it after a week and think … Even if you’re remarketing on low budget, one to two, £3 a day. And looking at it after a month and saying, “Oh, I’ve had nothing from that, so I’m going to stop.”

Tom:
I sort of recommend almost treating it as a bit like a discretionary budget. You just almost need to trust it for about two, three, four, five, six months. On a really low budget, because it will pay for itself.

Tom:
And the other thing, again we’re going way off topic here, but then it’s understanding the touchpoints people have with your brand before becoming a lead. It’s reading the podcast, going away, maybe seeing remarketing, going away. And then almost searching for you and then ringing. There’s a lot. You may have no idea that they’ve listened to the podcast before.

Tom:
I know some people ask where did you hear about us, but sometimes you don’t always get that honest an answer, you just say, “Oh yeah, I found you on Google.” Which is true, because that was the most recent way that they found you. It was actually maybe from a podcast that you did, or some remarketing that you’ve been doing for the past six months.

Tom:
It’s understanding that it’s … What do we call it? The not going on the last click mentality. In terms of don’t worry so much about the last click, but how have they engaged with your brand over the period of however many months. And it’s how best to track that. And it’s not easy.

Alex:
Absolutely. And then just thinking about, right at the beginning we said there’s about 12 posts that can be created off one 15-minute podcast episode. I think the one thing that’s annoying about remarketing is having the same ad over and over again. This gives you that variety. Just one.

Alex:
So if you were to do one a month, in month two you’ve got almost 30 different posts, 30 different adverts if you like, promoting your content, to get them back. And it just gives you so much content from that short amount of time.

Alex:
So I think if anyone’s struggling to write articles. I haven’t published my book yet, and I do need to revise it for the current climate we live in. But I wrote that by just talking into Otter, the app, for an hour, half an hour a day, over a month.

Alex:
So the biggest thing I think is just the sheer volume of content, the quality of content that you get out of it. Because it is you and your personality. I think if I try to write something, like an email, I’m a dull writer. But when I edit what I’ve talked about it, and I’m really invested in it, I think it just comes out a lot better.

Alex:
And then all the different ways that I can use that content, I think that’s why we … Although we don’t do half of that for our podcast. I’ve barely had to … I think I’ve made a couple of social media posts out of the other one. But if we really needed it, if we really needed clients, and really needed to ramp it up, run some ads, we’ve got so much content that we can use.

Alex:
But for our clients, the amount we’re creating now, I’m just interviewing them once a month. It’s just giving you and the team much more ammo to market their business with, isn’t it?

Tom:
Oh, 100%. That’s the thing, one podcast a month almost gives us a full month worth of social posts. Say if we get 15 posts out of one article. I know we don’t say how many posts would you do a day, but in terms of 15, that essentially gives you the ability to do one every other day. Which for most people, they think that’s quite good. If they are worried about how many posts there are going to be.

Tom:
Like you say, just automatically going to that remarketing funnel, is really, really good.

Alex:
I didn’t think we were going to be able to talk for 40 minutes about podcasts, Tom.

Tom:
And we didn’t.

Alex:
I definitely think we could fill three more minutes worth. I was talking to someone just before about the whole Google Ads thing. Like if someone searched for Japanese knotweed mortgages.

Tom:
Your favorite.

Alex:
Which is my total favorite. So we got the content, and then they’ve searched that. They’ve obviously had … Not obviously, we don’t know this because we’ve not actually tried it. But we assume they’ve been declined for the knotweed.

Alex:
And then you’ve got a whole 15 minute, or 10 minute … Like they’re in dire straits. They’ve gone through the whole process, it’s fallen through, they’re searching that because they need to get a mortgage, because they’ve been declined, or whatever it is.

Alex:
And then you’re saying, “Well actually, there are these building societies that will look at it, depending on the grade of the knotweed.” Why wouldn’t they ring, do you know what I mean? I think it’s more powerful than you just putting that in bullet points, is the point I’m trying to make.

Tom:
It’s an interesting one with the podcasts, in terms of Google Ads. Because it depends how conversion-focused, or what we probably call in terms of what’s the intent of the search. And typically, keywords with a high conversion intent, like I don’t know if someone was just to bid on the term “apply for a mortgage,” the click cost of that will be pretty high.

Tom:
Whereas you have some, and a lot of first-time buyer ones are like this. A lot of first-time buyer keywords are dirt cheap.

Alex:
Like how much is stamp duty or something.

Tom:
Absolutely. Those kind of keywords are absolutely dirt cheap. The reason is because they don’t convert very well, because it’s for people just looking for information. However, if you think that is cheap, but you can get that kind of traffic to your website.

Tom:
Great example, if you did a podcast on something about stamp duty, so you’ve got those in as an entrant. They listen to the podcast because they’re looking for the information. And they’re probably not going to convert into a lead, but you know there’s somebody in the market there, or at various points in the house-buying process, when they might be quite early on.

Tom:
But then you get them into the remarketing list. Say if they are a house purchaser, they may be ready to buy a house in three, four, five months. You think, “Okay, so I’m paying less than a pound a click to get them into that remarking list. They listen to the podcast, and then I’m paying a pound a day to keep in front of this person until they’re ready to actually buy the house.”

Tom:
It actually could be a really profitable way, even though it’s a bit more long-term, to use Google Ads. We typically use them in terms of trying to drive the conversions straight off.

Alex:
But you could do both.

Tom:
Absolutely.

Alex:
You can do. Absolutely do both. And perfect example of the quality leads triangle that you came up with. With quality at the top, time on one side, time and cost as the other points of the triangle. Like you can only have two.

Alex:
And then that’s a perfect example of using … But you don’t have to use the same two all the time. If you think of them as campaigns, I’ve got one campaign that’s a slow burn, much lower cost. But I do need some leads now, I can go …

Alex:
And then get yourself to a point where all you’re doing is the low-cost stuff, because you’re getting those in. It’s like a snowball effect. And then we’ve got clients that are just spending nothing now. They’ve got really high volumes of leads coming in, because they started off using ads, and they’ve got to a point now where there’s enough organic traffic where they’ve got more than enough what they need. They don’t need to spend the ads on. So they’ve used both together, and then merged into the slower one.

Alex:
We’ve gone over 40 minutes now, Tom. I thought that was pretty good.

Tom:
Yeah, nicely done.

Alex:
Pretty good value right at the end there, without the need to pad. Hopefully we’ve covered that whole strategy of why we do it. We don’t even put them on iTunes do we, the client ones?

Tom:
No, we just almost have a central Mortgage and Protection podcast that we almost give out to them. It’s their podcast. They’ll obviously say, if for example they want to do something else, then it’s theirs. It wouldn’t go off the site or anything like that.

Tom:
But yeah, it goes through, a nice central podcast. And I think there is actually a bit of a value in almost … So it is John Smith from John Smith Mortgages is on the Mortgage and Protection Podcast. It adds a bit of clout and a bit of credibility. In terms of they’ve been invited onto an external podcast. It sort of gives them another little bit of credibility.

Tom:
But yeah, I think we’ve covered it off. I know we did digress in the content side of things, but that is important.

Alex:
It is content, yeah.

Tom:
It is really important that you do do that content research piece first. Otherwise you fall into the trap of just putting something on the billboard. Or just putting something on Facebook. And it’s the same with the podcast. You just end up talking about something that perhaps isn’t really that interesting or relevant. But you just feel like you should do it, because it’s there to be done.

Tom:
So take the time, do the keyword research, understand what people are searching for, what their problems are. So the podcast is a really powerful mechanism of turning your knowledge into content. And then that content into social posts, or stuff for ads, or SEO.

Tom:
It’s really, really good. Think of the podcast as a mechanism, and a vehicle for getting from A to B. Rather than just thinking I’ve done a podcast, and that’s it.

Alex:
Talking about vehicles, nice little segue into what I was going to say. You’ve got car finance on one end of the his spectrum, and pension investment advice on the other, wealth management.

Tom:
Yeah.

Alex:
I think if we had a car finance client that was interested, we’d still do it, so we could create the content for email. We know that value-driven content works really well on email for that. But I don’t think they need it as much in terms of the building the rapport side of things.

Alex:
Whereas I think on the other side, we’re doing a lot more now with pension investments. That is all about building that, earning the right. You’ve got to really earn the right more. And I think mortgages and protection probably sit in the middle. But maybe there’s a smaller gap between mortgage, protection and wealth, than there is car finance. If that makes sense.

Tom:
Yeah, definitely. Car finance is very transactional, isn’t it? Where with mortgages … And even then with mortgages. In terms of what we like about the advice piece is that in terms of giving out that podcast and that advice like that, it encourages people that need advice. There’s only so much value, we think, to mortgage brokers getting people that are just chasing for a rate.

Tom:
If they just want the rate and that’s all they’re interested in, they’re not interested in advice, then they’re probably just going to go on Compare The Market anyway. Whereas the people that actually need the advice, that need, “I’m looking to put my mortgage, I’m not sure what I want to do. I want a bit of a 10, 15-year plan into my mortgage, and beyond,” or whatever. They’re the real value ones.

Tom:
And that’s where giving that advice up front encourages people that are actually looking for advice, rather than just rate chasers, or tire kickers, should we say. Again, another vehicle pun.

Alex:
So I’m going to put the brakes on now, Tom.

Tom:
How do I get off this?

Alex:
I’m going to pull the handbrake out. I’m going to put my hazards on and say, thanks everyone for listening. If you’ve got any questions, if you want us to cover off anything on the podcast, if you’ve got any specific questions about this particular episode that didn’t make any sense, best place to find us is in our Facebook group. You’ll most likely find it on Lead Generation and Financial Services. Or you can search of Advisors Assemble.

Alex:
We’re both on the LinkedIn. Just give us a shout, we’ve got a really nice community in there, we do the virtual coffee thing. Tom, you joined it this week, didn’t you?

Tom:
Yeah. I’m on hand to answer any questions that may arise.

Alex:
Yeah. But normally in there they chat amongst themselves.

Tom:
Yeah, that’s good. It is good. Yeah, it’s a good friendly group, isn’t it really that?

Alex:
Yeah.

Tom:
And I do enjoy it. And you learn a lot.

Alex:
Yeah.

Tom:
It’s great for us in terms of finding [crosstalk 00:37:33]-

Alex:
That’s exactly what I was thinking.

Tom:
Like ear to the ground. Because we read things. We get the email bullets from Mortgage Strategy and things like that, and also we talk to brokers. But actually it’s almost like listening in on brokers speaking amongst themselves. Their either opportunities or concerns for the future. Particularly with what’s going on.

Tom:
Really, really interesting. Dispelled a few myths that I was thinking. Some of their concerns I was thinking, “Oh wow, I didn’t really think about that.”

Alex:
I genuinely left that. Because they were asking me about some lead gens. But I got on to the point where I was saying, I don’t want people to be able to just ring me straight away. I was like, I’m too busy. And then I got off that call thinking, they must think, “Why has he just spent an hour with us if he’s so precious about his time?”

Alex:
But I was like, I took so much from that thing. So things that I knew, one of the guys was struggling. Like none of them were using automation for follow-ups on first-time buyers. They were like, “Oh, I should keep in contact.” I know one of them was using an app, but that was just reminding them to contact, rather than actually doing it.

Alex:
So in my head for our website builder thing, the Advisors Assemble, if I built an automation that was really easy to help them do that, that was a product that is a need. So I was like, they probably don’t know how selfish I’m being by giving that hour up a week.

Alex:
And just hearing about their thoughts on the loan-to-values and things like that. Not that we just set that up just for us to learn. We do chat nonsense and give a load of advice as well. I think we get as much out of it as everyone else, I think is the point I’m trying to make.

Tom:
Yeah, it was originally set up in terms of when lockdown started.

Alex:
Yeah.

Tom:
So people could have a bit of a conversation that they [crosstalk 00:39:12].

Alex:
Exactly. It’s kind of like now we just talk about … It’s like catching up with our mates now, isn’t it?

Tom:
Yeah.

Alex:
And there are some really nice people. And everyone actually genuinely wants to help each other. The amount of times that, I think there was someone coming on saying, “I’m not sure I to do video.” And everyone clubbed together. Although technically competitors, wanted to provide solutions.

Alex:
And then there’s some people that are really experienced, so they’ll say, “Speak to so-and-so. Or let’s find out from so-and-so, because they’ve been doing it for longer, what do you think?” And they talk about all sorts of stuff. Stuff that we can’t help with, that we don’t get involved in, the sales process. We’re marketers, it’s all the front-end stuff.

Alex:
So yeah, there’s a nice little advert for our Facebook group and [inaudible 00:39:53]. So hopefully we’ll see some people next week.

Tom:
Yeah, looking forward to it.

Alex:
Awesome, right. Speak to you soon everyone. Bye bye.

Tom:
Bye guys.

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