085 – Data Capture Options On Your Website – Forms, Chatbots, TypeForms, Full Applications

085 - Data Capture Options On Your Website - Forms, Chatbots, TypeForms, Full Applications
085 - Data Capture Options On Your Website - Forms, Chatbots, TypeForms, Full Applications

Transcription

Alex Curtis:
Welcome back to the Advisers Assemble podcast, formerly known as Lead Generation Financial Services. I’m with Mr. Maplethorpe. Tom, how’s it going?

Tom Maplethorpe:
Afternoon, mate. Yeah, not bad, not bad. How are you?

Alex Curtis:
Good. I’m all right. Haven’t put you off-guard, getting the name wrong or anything you sort of still in the zone?

Tom Maplethorpe:
No, I’m still getting my stride. Yeah, don’t worry about that. Seamless.

Alex Curtis:
Yeah, no, definitely. Definitely, as per usual. We want to talk about data capture on websites. What are the options, what we’ve learned and found and know about sort of capturing data in different ways. I think for me is, with a lot of these podcast things, there’s not a straight answer, because if you take one example where someone is… They’ve got a website, they’ve got a specialism, let’s say it’s Japanese knotweed mortgages, because it’s my favorite niche. They have got videos talking about what all the different lenders will treat it. What you got to do, blah, blah, blah. Almost give you all the information you need to go and do it yourself, building trust and rapport, et cetera. And they do it in a non salesy way.

Alex Curtis:
Then I don’t think it matters as much how that person asks for the inquiry than someone that is a whole of market, hides behind stock and a logo, doesn’t put the names of their advisors on or anything. There’s a big difference between the other one, whereas you’d probably have to do more sort of tweaks and look out how people interact and worry a bit more about the customer journey on the latter. Would you agree with that?

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah, definitely. I think you’re right. The specialism thing, that counts for a lot. That sort of takes out… Well, when you just we’re talking about like the data capturing a lot of it comes down to like psychology and we call it CRO or Conversion Rate Optimization.

Tom Maplethorpe:
But when you think about your specialist in something, that overrides an awful lot of that psychology, if you know what I mean in terms of, because he was [inaudible 00:01:58] from a branding point of view in the mind of the user that you are the Japanese knotweed mortgage expert, why wouldn’t they get in touch with you?

Tom Maplethorpe:
But then, if you’re a bit more, you cover a lot more bases, then you do need to think of maybe a little bit more carefully about how you do or get the kind of data capture that you’re sort of looking for. And a lot of it comes down to, well, generally that we found is to just make it as easy as possible for people to get in touch.

Alex Curtis:
Absolutely. And I think it’s no, it’s kind of easy to see what we suggest because on our new website builder, all the templates, all, bar one, actually just, but we’ve only put that in there just because of a different option rather than a recommendation, but the three main templates and pretty much the three that people are using, the form is on the top right-hand side, underneath the menu in, we call it like that hero space on every single page.

Alex Curtis:
And we don’t put a title at the top. We don’t say, “Call. Arrange of callback,” or anything. It’s that’s kind of left open and we ask for name, email, phone number, message, submit. And we kind of leave it at that. I guess, that’s what we recommend if we don’t know the backstory of your specialism or whatever. We found that to be quite a good one. People sort of unpack their problem in that sort of message box, don’t they?

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. We’ve tried so much stuff with it. I know we’ll, I’m sure we’re going to talk about landbots in a bit, but or chatbots in a bit. But yeah, we’ve done multi-stage forms, some of the capture details that go along, some that don’t because this will be the theory that in terms of okay, if you capture more of the information, is it a better quality lead that comes through? But then, chances are, you might not get as many through because there’s more steps to follow, but then where are they going to be a good lead, anyway, if they’re not really that…? There’s so many kinds of permutations [crosstalk 00:03:34].

Alex Curtis:
Yeah, because they could be desperate. Like you could be the last, how you’re my last hope, so I’ll fill in whatever you want. But it’s a rubbish lead because I’ve been declined by every single other broker, every single lender.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. On the other side of it, as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s kind of, we find it just generally works and then it just go back to like we said it. It did just become a bit of a numbers game. The longer that your, say your form, for example, it is, the less likely, the less number of people will fill it out. And then, if you’re not getting loads of traffic to your website, you can’t really afford to have a low conversion rate. If you’re getting loads of traffic, then you can still say, “Oh, okay, well I can afford to have a more complex form to get better quality leads, even if it converts or one or 2% less because I’m not doing as much like work on the other side. And once the lead drops in.

Tom Maplethorpe:
But if you’re not getting much traffic, it’s almost 1% or 2% conversion rate of a 100% isn’t sort of amazing, depending on what your, that’s obviously depending on your timeframe.

Alex Curtis:
I was going to say, as well, it depends how many advisors you’ve got, as well. Because if you’re just like a one person outfit, you’ll want all the inquiries coming to you. Whereas, you might want to filter some inquiries because you don’t want a manual process. Like, you want to be able to then to tick remortgaged buy-to-let, whatever, so it filters off to that particular advisor or that admin or that person that would call them back, as well.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah.

Alex Curtis:
There’s all sorts of things to think about.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Should we talk about then, the different options that we’ve got?

Alex Curtis:
Yeah.

Tom Maplethorpe:
And then, the kind of main ones. You’ve got, like your standard you box standard form, which we find works very well. And then, you’ve got your chatbot, you’ve got chatbots like these landbots. In fact, on our own website, we use landbot type forms, as well.

Alex Curtis:
A bit like, is it Trussle that use a sort of type forms sort of thing. Or is it Habito? Hard to explain what a type form is. I’m just trying to think without the visual aids.

Tom Maplethorpe:
A type form is essentially a form that once you’ve completed one of the questions, it then disappears and shows another one. The first one will be your name, you write your name, then that disappears. Then it sort of like scrolls down to the next on and what you’re looking to do. Whereas, it’s quite similar to a chatbot, where the chatbot is a bit more, it shows in more of like a conversational output, if that makes sense.

Tom Maplethorpe:
You can see the questions or when it comes to the question and then the answers are sort of an answer and it’s almost typed as if you were doing like a sort of like a text conversation. I think Trussle at the minute have gotten like a sort of a type form situation. If anyone’s sort of listening at the time.

Alex Curtis:
But like, I know and we’re going off topic, but it really annoys me when people just want to copy what Trussle or Habito are doing. When that person is a one person, solo broker and they want to copy what a company does, who’s got like hundreds of advisors. It just, it’s not the same business model. It’s like, don’t just copy Trussle or Habito just because they’ve got lots of money and they must be working out. It’s a completely different strategy. [crosstalk 00:06:23].

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah, and the important thing to remember is like you said, they have a lot of money. A lot of there where you’ll be getting a lot of good quality traffic. The good quality traffic they put through their lead capture mechanism. You don’t know, but it may not convert as well as it would say, if you just had a basic form, arguably, but then that’s not how their model works. They want to capture the information that will be resourced to deal with that based on the amount they spend, if you know what I mean. It’s so slightly, but yeah, it’s not the same. It’s not comparing apples with apples because they’ll be getting huge amounts of great quality traffic.

Tom Maplethorpe:
But even if that sort of that type form doesn’t convert as highly as maybe other forms, other kind of more simple forms would, they get the level of information they need for it to be profitable, you would imagine. Whereas, if chances are the vast majority of other brokers won’t be spending that kind of money, won’t be seeing that amount of traffic. They need to get a higher conversion rates from their website to make more of it. And that’s where a simple form is probably more appropriate.

Alex Curtis:
And then, the other thing we probably want to, there is those options of is it like Mortgage Brain, that Twenty7Tec, they’ve got like rates tables with an inquiry now, which essentially would be a form, sorry, a rates table in front of a form, which is another way of going it. I think I’ve made, well, you were on my… I sound like I’m old-fashioned, you were on my webinar this morning. I don’t know if you saw, but I was talking about this. How I don’t like rates-

Tom Maplethorpe:
On the YouTube.

Alex Curtis:
Yeah, so I’m not a fan of rates before form. I think, well, I mean, if anyone’s not seeing that presentation, it’s in the Facebook group, I asked the advisors, “What’s the most important part of their job?” It is the advice, not the access to the products, so why are we trying to advertise the access to the products, ie., having rates before? For me, rates is secondary. It’s we want to sell the advice. It would come back then to if you sell the advice well, that form with the little message box, if you can get them to a point where they’ve decided they know that you can help them. You’ve got the knowledge, you’ve got the expertise you come across in a way where you want to put my situation before yours, I can tell you what to help me.

Alex Curtis:
Oh, I just want to tell you what the problem is on the form and then expect the call back and all good. Especially, coming back to, I suppose, the original point that I made. I’m not fond of rates tables, Tom, do you? Are you?

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah, no, I’d agree. I would just say people are looking for like, in terms of even on the search, for things like mortgage rates, they’re not, like you said, they’re not actually looking for the advice. Then they immediately become a tough sell as soon as they land on your webpage. Because they’re not looking for advice. The chances of them turning into a lead are probably going to be minuscule because all they’re looking for is the rate.

Tom Maplethorpe:
And if they want a rate, they can find that on sort of comparison sites, do it that way, go straight through to the lender and that’s fine. But the real value in a mortgage broker and a mortgage advisor is sort of coming up with that kind of, that strategy of okay, what’s the right product? What’s the right product for me now? And what’s the right product for me next? And what’s sort of going to happen, what are the things going to happen in the next two to five years? And it sort of helps you sort of find what the right product is, and also thinking about product incentive.

Tom Maplethorpe:
You might have a higher rate mortgage, but it potentially has a no upfront fee. And then, that mortgage advisors can help you work out okay, what’s actually financially going to be the best for you over two or five or a six year period or whatever it is with all those things taken into account?

Tom Maplethorpe:
Whereas, if you’re just a rate shopper, you’re just looking for the lowest rate, then you’re not really open to that advice of finding that kind of like mortgage strategy, for use for a better term.

Alex Curtis:
And then you’ve got like, I suppose we did a bit with, I suppose it was more in the life insurance side. It was that whole kind of full on application online, which I don’t know if it kind of leads people, if you’d have like a massive form, like to where it kind of makes people think that they’re going to get a result at the end, rather than are they disappointed when they don’t get a rate at the end. It’s just, “Oh, we’ll call you back.”

Alex Curtis:
It’s just like, “Oh, I’ve just filled all that in just to get a call back.” Like, I think that’s another reason why to simplify that form, as well.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah, definitely. Because I think people in a lot of ways, they’re sort of used to getting, like you say, with insurance, and it’s a great example. And also, with things like personal finance, personal loans. People are used to filling out something online and getting a result back immediately. And if they’re sort of in that sort of frame of mind with a mortgage, you think, “Oh, okay, I’m going to get a mortgage sorted at the end of this web form.” And they’re not, it’s a bit like, “Oh, well that’s not ideal.” And that’s were we try and be sort of like upfront about what’s going to happen. Because there’s no point capturing a lot of leads, trying to do dupe them in thinking they can get something else when they’re not.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Because they’re just not going to pick up the phone. And all you do is waste the money getting them in and waste the time trying to ring them when they’re not interested in a phone call. We’ve sort of think, okay, be best to be up front about it, even though not being as up front about it may get you more leads in and you may be sort of get more attractive cost per lead or whatever else. I think ultimately in the backend when to see what actually goes through and converts and how much time you spend actually working those, you’re probably better off just being upfront, seeing a high cost per lead, seeing fewer leads through, but it tends to be better quality.

Alex Curtis:
And it’s all about that. Cost per acquisition.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. Exactly, exactly. Cost per lead is just like a metric on the way to a number of other metrics. We also look at things like cost per click, which is when the whole is, in the grand scheme is really fairly irrelevant. It’s important to us because we need to sort of it’s one of the indicators that shows us what is, or isn’t working as part of various campaigns. But if you’re going to measure one thing, don’t do a cost per lead. Yeah, do it absolutely on cost per acquisition.

Alex Curtis:
I suppose one, if people are, so I suppose a lot of people listening will just be like, “Guys, just tell me what to put on and I’ll put it on.” But other people will want to kind of, we’ll have some marketing people that will want to sort of test different things. And I guess the most important thing is to set up in Google Analytics, a goal. You can easily see firstly where it’s coming from, but the rates at which it converts, because it can kind of tell you a lot of information that from every 10 people that go, is there one person or two people or three people, or is it six out of a 100 or whatever it is? So that you can then work out. But also, it’s not just how many leads you get.

Alex Curtis:
Again, it comes back to that cost per acquisition. Isn’t it? You want to report back as far as you can go, because what we found with the chatbots, I suppose, we were getting cheaper leads more through, but less converting to sale.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s where like you said, your reporting is really important because you chances are a more lengthier form, if that’s something that you wanted to do, would probably convert better on things like organic traffic and maybe some Google Pay traffic. Particularly, on organic traffic, you’d expect it to, but then it may not convert very well from Facebook traffic, for example. If you’re doing a paid Facebook campaign or even just your, what we would call organic social stuff. But then, those those metrics tell you what converts best and what doesn’t.

Tom Maplethorpe:
And then, you may want to think, okay, well, so, okay, so this page converts really well on organic and Google PPC, but not on Facebook. You may want to consider changing something else in your Facebook one. Having a shorter form or something that makes it easier for people to get in touch. Or like, I would say like the one in the box, maybe a landbot or typeform could be better in its place.

Alex Curtis:
I guess some people are thinking, why would Facebook Ad traffic behave in a different way? And I guess it’s the someone’s searching on Google, they’ve like, “Right, I’m going to solve this mortgage thing out. I need to remortgage or I’ve got this buy-to-let offer,” whatever it is. They’re in the zone. They’re doing it. They’re searching online. They’re in that moment. They want to achieve something and get it done. Whereas, we’re on Facebook because pretty much we’re bored or we’re stalking our ex-girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever.

Alex Curtis:
You all know I do that, or have gone. But it’s a completely different mindset. Isn’t it? Your, so that’s why, and then you can get in front of people on Facebook who have been recently interacting in like remortgaged content or they’ve been on remortgaged pages. They are in the zone of if something’s going on, they, or they’ve completed that. Or something has put them in that audience.

Alex Curtis:
But in that minute, when they go and view your website, the mindset is slightly different as-

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. We started with Facebook and Facebook Ads. It’s, it’s done on interest based, but you can’t necessarily get that context right, of them wanting it now, then that’s what Google gives you. What’s typically, sort of Facebook traffic is cheaper and you can get cheaper leads through Facebook. Nothing does quite beat that Google Ads element of people searching for it there then wanting it now.

Tom Maplethorpe:
There’s almost a difference between what you call, and being content marketing and context marketing. Context being in terms of, okay, what does somebody want to read or listen to or do right now? We find Facebook can be a bit better, further up the funnel, in terms of providing the content, finding the information and getting them to a place where they’re ready to convert. That’s when they tend to do the searches on Google and that’s where you need to be there for when they’re ready to essentially turn from interested traffic into leads.

Alex Curtis:
In terms of also, the other thing I wanted to talk about was, I can’t remember if we’ve mentioned already. Is someone was asking me the other day about like, “What should I put in my magnet?” And they were talking about having obviously like a PDF locked behind a form. And then, actually I was doing some, because I’m so famous now, Tom, some of the mortgage networks have been asking me to spill the beans and do some webinars.

Alex Curtis:
And then, one, I was reviewing some websites and one, there was one person who had lead magnets on there saying you would have to fill out a form to download this remortgage brochure or whatever it was. But he was asking for the phone number and I’ve seen, not necessarily, but in my sort of history of seeing in different industries, people asking for like name, address, phone number to download a PDF, which is mental.

Alex Curtis:
For me, I would either most ask for name and email in that situation and not expect and not necessarily even have to do that. I mean, we don’t do like lead magnets for clients, do we?

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah, that’s right. And then, the thing to remember with lead magnets is whatever is behind that wall, that login wall, that where you’ve got to put in your, sorry, your name and your email address. Whatever’s on the back of that, it’s got to be really good and really sort of really kind of a one off piece or specialized or piece of content because there is so much content out there elsewhere. For me, I sort of look at them and think, “Okay, yeah, you can get this guide. You can get this PDF, but you’re going to have to enter your email, as well.” I’m pretty sure I could just get this from anywhere else without having to do that on a different website, particularly with things like financial services, where there is a lot of content out there.

Tom Maplethorpe:
But yeah, it’s with lead magnets in general, it’s a bit of a tough one in the sense that with a lead magnet, you tend to maybe need them because you’re not converting people into inquiries yet or the traffic that’s going to your website, isn’t yet ready to become an inquiry.

Tom Maplethorpe:
And that is so in that instance, I think for us, we, I’m not sure we’d do too much really where in terms of driving that kind of traffic, when you know you can get people that are [crosstalk 00:16:36] ready to go through Google Ads. Again, it might be a bit more expensive, the cost per lead, maybe. Well, it probably will almost definitely be higher than the cost of getting somebody on a lead magnet.

Tom Maplethorpe:
But then, the outcome is going to be far more positive, a lot quicker. And the thing with the lead magnet is there’s a lot of nurturing that needs to go on after that, to turn that actually into some business. A lot of tweaking and a lot of sort of changes here and there and make sure the right emails go in the right timeframe and have someone click on this email.

Tom Maplethorpe:
No, they haven’t. Okay, then let’s see this one or if they have, well, then you’d see a different one. The lead magnets and the flows like that do need to be really intricate to make the most out of them. And it’s a lot of effort. A lot of time does need to go into them. And then for us, I think we would always sort of think that that time when you convert it into money, it’s probably better spent some more context-focused ads of people being in the place ready to buy.

Alex Curtis:
Do you know what I think? The other specialism that I did a lot of work in historically, randomly, was sports products. We found that sort of the brochure, PDF behind the form. We would go, on the product page, we would have, book a demo, get a quote, download the brochure, and there would be different forms for each.

Alex Curtis:
And that would be like each stage of the buying cycle was covered off. And then, what we would find was people will go in, download the brochure and then 10, 15 minutes later, get a quote or book a demo. That works for that. And it worked really well. But and then there will be, so then there’ll be a lot of marketers who work in all sorts of industries who will bang on about how great lead magnets are because they are and they have worked in other areas. I mean, a lead magnet would work for us for example, because the people don’t have to. A lot of the time, a mortgage is at a certain point and then they stop and then it’s parts of people. It’s different to wanting leads or marketing.

Alex Curtis:
If you’ve got a business, you always want to market better. In our situation, a lead magnet could work well. Yeah. It’s, I think that’s a problem. There’s a lot of marketers saying, talk about lead magnets because they have worked in other industries. But in mortgages, I don’t think you necessarily, well, I know you don’t necessarily need them because you can get inquiries through like good content. If someone wants help in that moment, and you can get across that you are trustworthy, build rapport with them, make it really transparent about what you do that they want. They need the help. They want your advice. They just want to speak to someone they can trust and someone they know that can help them that’s not going to waste their time.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. And also, yeah, because I think on that sports products side, well, it wasn’t also the products, as well, like very specialized.

Alex Curtis:
Oh, yeah, a 100%. Yeah. Things like it was like portable floodlights.

Tom Maplethorpe:
That’s right.

Alex Curtis:
It was like, literally, if you are… Because you were looking at them for your football thing.

Tom Maplethorpe:
That’s right. Yes, that’s right. When we first started working together before yeah, that’s right. We were interested for [inaudible 00:19:24] ourselves. Yeah, they were really sort of specialized products. There wasn’t loads of racks of information out there on other sites, either. But yeah, interesting.

Alex Curtis:
There were two competitors, it was really unique product. It’s a completely different thing to like there’s more mortgage brokers than there are houses, almost. But there was only two players in that specific market, so that strategy worked really well for them. But you can’t, even with, we find with different brands, like you can’t just copy and paste a website and it will work for another one. This, I think the principles that I bang on about, about people buy from people, et cetera, they work. But it’s like, you can’t sometimes if you will work, and we’ve seen that on Facebook.

Alex Curtis:
We’ve run an ad. You could run an ad with one brand that is exactly the same, the image and the content, but it wouldn’t work on a different brand. Because there could be one word and that’s, I think that’s the same with like forms and things like that. It just depends.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. 100%. And we do see that. We do see ads in terms of we have seen, okay, so similar-ish websites in terms of like that the structure of the page, the brands are quite different, but with them saw similar amounts of similar quality traffic, but one converted really well the landbot, one converted really well with the form. The important thing to do is remember is to test it. That is sort of what we have done. We like to start with something like a simple form, because we know broadly it tends to convert the best. On your answer it’s quite easy or reasonably easy to sort of split test.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Whether you’re doing Facebook, Google and send things to different landing pages and compare and see what the conversion rates are like. And then also, it’s not just the conversion rate of what turns from click to lead, but then what are the types of leads that they bring? Because that’s a big one that we had in terms of sense of what business finance.

Tom Maplethorpe:
We found that we had switched from a form to a landbot, we generated a lot more inquiries. Say if we’re talking conversion rates, previously converted at say 13% from click to lead. We then, switched that from a form to a landbot. That conversion rate went up to about 17%, but overall the leads weren’t as good. And it was almost like out of that, 100 people say take a 100 people, the 17 that we were now converting were different from the 15 people that we were doing before. About 13 or whatever, in terms of, if you imagine them as conversion rate.

Tom Maplethorpe:
That 17% was a totally different segment from the 15% that were converting before. And it all came down to the psychology of it. While we were getting high numbers through, the people that actually use the landbot for whatever reason, weren’t as good at quality in this instance, on the business finance side to people that were, that ended up using the form.

Alex Curtis:
I think that’s why we, and with that particular client, we do a, like a metric of cost per good app, that we’ve made up ourselves. CPGA, where we get reports. It will be obviously, if the client would say to us, “Yeah, this is good. We can do some of this or it’s not.” So it was very, what’s the right word. I can’t think of the right word. It’s not like a machine, it’s the client saying based on the conversation they’ve had, it’s good, it’s not.

Alex Curtis:
And then, that helps us create a cost with good app. And we can link that back to specific search terms, specific pages that they’ve gone on, specific forms of data entry that they’ve used, whether it was like you say a landbot, or the form and get a cost per good app for the landbot, for that particular keyword. The cost per good app for the application form for that particular keyword, et cetera.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah, and once we started doing that, once we got, started getting that feedback, I think we reallocated about 40% of the budget.

Alex Curtis:
Oh yeah, we did. There was one particular-

Tom Maplethorpe:
Particular keyword.

Alex Curtis:
I can’t remember the keyword that was bringing in and we were like, “Oh, cost per lead is awesome.” But then, when we started doing the cost per good app, it was like-

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. And it was nothing. And on the face of it, you would never, so it’s not like they were polarizing the different. There was a variation.

Alex Curtis:
It was a finance rather than a loan [crosstalk 00:23:01].

Tom Maplethorpe:
It was the difference between the loan and lending between them.

Alex Curtis:
Yeah, yeah.

Tom Maplethorpe:
That was the difference between the loan and lending. Lending we got, yeah, decent volumes of… The cost was a slightly cheaper than it was for loans, but in terms of not amazingly different. But the volume is right. We’re getting, yeah, great volumes for it. But then, we actually went back and fed them through. And so, okay, so what’s actually turned into business? And the lending [crosstalk 00:23:22].

Alex Curtis:
Yeah, we [crosstalk 00:23:22].

Tom Maplethorpe:
With all the notes. Which, we just, yeah, that day. We just switched it all over. Because it was data from a good few months. Then we switched completely over to the other side. It was such a good use of spend.

Alex Curtis:
Absolutely. And this is why I like don’t envy the guys and girls that are listening that are, just have the brokerage and got no black book and want to get some leads. Want to do it quickly, and we’ve just talked about 30 minutes and basically not told them the answer on the phone. Like, there’s no answer, depends.

Alex Curtis:
It’s I don’t envy their situation at all. And I’m not surprised and why people turn to them purchasing leads, because people are saying that it’s 25 good, 30 good lead, here’s a remortgaged lead for 50 quid. Or because it’s that much less complicated than worrying about all these different forms and things.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. Nothing, yeah and the form. The forms is just a small percentage of it. It’s how we say, the rest is the quality of traffic. I don’t know where you get that quality traffic. And sometimes, you can think you’re getting quality traffic, but it’s not converting. You think well, why? There are so many, so many permutations and variables. But yeah. Well, it’s basically, so I suppose, what keeps us in a job. It is say full-time job.

Alex Curtis:
Yeah. And I was going to say, yes, to be honest, if it was mega easy, you wouldn’t need, nobody would need us. But I think coming back to it though, that we have got that kind of entry level, we know that there is that basic form that make it really easy.

Alex Curtis:
Also, give people options, like give people the phone number. If you’re happy to do the WhatsApp, give people the option to tap to WhatsApp. If there is a general rule, if like you just want a website, you don’t, you haven’t got time to be looking at and you don’t even know what analytics is, that basic form name, phone number, email, message. Don’t even put a title on it at the top of like request a call back or ask more info. Just have that form on there, on every single page. Before they, when their mouse has got to go over it to exit and close the tab. It could be the difference. Oh, actually, I will just actually ask this. And a bit more about like, it is sometimes it’s the way our brains work. It’s can be as simple as that. If we have totally confused you for 30 minutes, follow that and do that. And that will, in most cases, I think get the best results you’re looking for.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. 100%.

Alex Curtis:
But don’t forget those principles. You know, if you are going to hide behind a logo, if you’re not going to show people who you are, tell people who you are, if you’re only interested in, if you want to lock away information, rather than share it, then you’re going to find it more difficult than those that do. I think.

Alex Curtis:
I suppose the form is only, like you said, only one element. It’s not the be all and end all. There’s no shortcuts. You have got a lot of options, but just do this. To be honest, like the rule for all of it, like we normally find we’ll test everything. It’s normally the simplest thing is, well, what works.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Definitely. Definitely. And that’s the thing. And it has come down to that. Yeah. Like you said. Make it easy for people to get in touch with you. The amount of websites you go on and you think, “Okay, so I’ve got a nice, nice message in my sort of homepage banner and you scroll down. I’ve got forms of right in the bottom, a useful thing. Okay. That does have a value because if people sort of read through the content, they start to think.” Would it convert better with that form at the top? In terms of, because then people can scroll up or scroll down to get to it or they can just so that points to the details and straight away if they know that’s what they want to do.

Tom Maplethorpe:
And then, that’s the thing. Because some things sort of forms if it’s on banners can seem a bit not unsightly, but then they’re not as aesthetic as some of those awesome home or web page designs that don’t have a form at the top. And I’d agree. I think that there’s a lot of sites that look better without the form in the banner. But they don’t convert as well.

Alex Curtis:
Yeah, yeah, exactly [crosstalk 00:26:59].

Tom Maplethorpe:
The harsh realities of website design and website build is that often the best designed websites don’t really convert all that well.

Alex Curtis:
Yeah.

Tom Maplethorpe:
That’s when you sort of go through, if you’re on Google and you’re looking at kind of like sort of really high volume keywords, things like say like take like remortgage, for example, the stuff that gets the highest volume stuff. If you click on those ads and the webpages, they also follow a similar template, that didn’t look that good. You sort of, if you’re going to say, “Is this the website, the best website I’ve seen that’s bidding on some of the highest click cost keywords?” You say, “Well, no, definitely not.” But they do tend to convert better. Because they just make it easy for people to do it. And making it easier for people to do it, isn’t the same as a website looking great, unfortunately.

Alex Curtis:
And the problem is we, I think a lot of the time we get a new business, we start out, get a new, nice new website. We’ll get a designer to make something look beautiful and then we’ll share it on LinkedIn. And our friends will say, “Oh, it looks awesome. Brilliant.” They tend to be the ones that don’t convert that well. The ones where you’re kind of like you say, “It’s not as good looking.” It’s just and there, it’s kind of, I use the example in, I don’t know if I mentioned this, Tom, but some of the mortgage networks have been asking me to do webinars. But using cars, it was like sometimes actually the, how is it? The I was at the Dacia Sandero is better than a Ferrari in terms of, if that Ferrari’s got no engine and you can’t drive it and no one can see, like what’s the point?

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah.

Alex Curtis:
Sometimes it’s like, an efficient, not that the, I probably should have used like a hybrid vehicle or something. The more efficient, less jazzy website will convert better.

Tom Maplethorpe:
We see it all the time. And you know, you just sort of see websites that have things like, videos in the banner and things like that. And think, “Oh, yeah, because it looks smart.” It’s like well, yeah, it does, but it doesn’t turn views into leads is the problem. And that’s the point of the vast majority of websites, really.

Alex Curtis:
Yeah, yeah, no, it is, really. I think some people will want to get and like we’ve had, since they’ve launched their site, I think people were just like, “Oh, I just want an online business card. I just want to look smart.”

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that brochure website. Yeah.

Alex Curtis:
Okay, cool.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:28:54]. And then, there have been instances, and I think you did mention earlier on. I think that’s why we do have that option in the site builder. Or it doesn’t necessarily have a form in the top. Because for some people, it is like you say, it’s just that the online business card, with that online point of reference to prove that they are a real business.

Alex Curtis:
Yeah, that’s right. [crosstalk 00:29:11]. I had this guy this morning. He was like, “Look, I don’t want to try and generate leads through the site because I don’t want to… What I’ve found historically was people just asking me like loads questions that were too early on. They were like, they had no deposit.” Or it was like, he literally just wanted a website to look good for his referrals.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah.

Alex Curtis:
Like, “I don’t want people coming to my website who don’t know me. I’ve been going for quite a while. I’ve got a really good black book. I just want to look smart, Alex, I’ll leave it to you, you… We’ll go over the template.” He’s like, “Maybe, which one do you think is best?” Boom, boom, boom-boom, boom. Yeah, it’s if you want to generate leads off of strangers, because you haven’t got that black book, then you’ve got to think about it more. But you can. Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with having a good looking website to impress people. Especially, maybe if you’re doing a lot of high net worth stuff or you’re doing investors bridging or something like that. And it is all going to be off referrals, it just needs to look, yeah. They look like the [crosstalk 00:00:30:00].

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. That is a good point. Like the high net worth stuff. That like you say, that does tend to be, that’s not all necessarily as much of an online search. That is sort of going to be more through referrals. We know from the keyword, the keyword research in terms of those. There are searches there for high net worth mortgages and like a reasonable number, but probably not as many searches as you would expect people are looking for them, if you know what I mean.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Because it will be a doctor on ridiculous salary will ask his doctor mate [crosstalk 00:30:27].

Alex Curtis:
Or something like that. Yeah. But there is such that we’re not as opposed to say, for example, the general public that they tends to sort of search for mortgages online. And like you say, they sort of don’t necessarily search in that space. In terms of turning them into leads on a website, is it actually a different sort of proposition than it is from perhaps some of this or maybe a more regular mortgage applicant. And we see a lot with things like wealth management, as well, regardless of like the psychology and sort of the structure of your websites, trying to encourage someone to get in touch. They’re not going to do it unless they trust you. And that’s why we still pay those kind of wealth management sort of websites, they do need to perhaps look a bit better.

Alex Curtis:
Maybe not be so quite so heavy on the conversion rate, optimization of squeezing every visitor into a lead or to that maximum percentage because no one’s going to get in touch. And sort of have that conversation because, well, it’s particularly wealth management. Because they’ve still got something to lose. With mortgages and mortgages we find that you don’t normally have too much to lose by having sort of that conversation.

Alex Curtis:
But if you make a bad decision with some of your investments and it can be really, really sort of costly. Obviously, it can be costly if you make a bad decision in your mortgage. But if something doesn’t go ahead for whatever reason, then you know, potentially no one’s out, that the user is necessarily out of pocket. Yes, it’s slightly different when the stakes are a bit higher, that it comes more into sort of like the brand, the perception, the trust and credibility that go into it, rather than the psychology of the webpage builder.

Tom Maplethorpe:
I think we’ve covered a lot of grounds home. I do feel like we’ve not given people an answer. But we didn’t do that with, what was the other one we did recently? And I got those really good feedback on it.

Alex Curtis:
Oh, okay. Good. Well, I think the overriding thing is if you’re not sure, simple form. And I think that will be the right answer for 90% of the listeners.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Do those principles can’t encourage people enough to get themselves out there. It’s the advice that people are paying for, not the access. It’s like, I hope there’ll be a day when we don’t, we could Google a mortgage thing and none of the 10 websites on page one have mentioned that they’ve got access to 50 lenders at the top. Then, I think we can [crosstalk 00:32:28] possibly. Well, we’ll no longer be needed.

Alex Curtis:
Yeah.

Tom Maplethorpe:
We’ll go and work at something else. We’ll go X-Craft on it.

Alex Curtis:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:32:37].

Tom Maplethorpe:
It’s a whole different colored fish.

Alex Curtis:
Doing something different. Open a sausage factory.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. We’ll do sports products, yeah?

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah, nice. Get those-

Alex Curtis:
Those portable football floodlights. Design our own.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah, we could do. Get the lead magnet back out.

Alex Curtis:
[inaudible 00:32:52]. Yeah, sorry. Cool. Right. We’re going to be back with more, the feedback I got Tom that people actually liked our episodes.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Oh, really?

Alex Curtis:
We’re going to still, yeah. Someone actually said, oh, what was it? I can’t think of the right phrase, but it was like, “They were not in the mood to hear about what another broker was up to.” It did go kind of heavy on the, because they were quite popular. Those episodes, finding out what other people are doing. We are going to even out a bit more and talk a bit more about this, as well. I think variety is the spice of life. I’ve got some good catch up episodes with people coming up soon.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), nice.

Alex Curtis:
And they do get a really good reaction and but we’re going to be doing more of these, as well. We’ll be back. Speak to you soon. Let us know, actually in the Facebook group, if someone wants a topic covered off, I mean, and we, I sort of pick this up from, we do the virtual coffee, the Facebook group and the whole sort of lead magnet thing came up for conversation in there. Shout us if you want, if you’re stuck on anything, give us the ideas. We’ll, me and Tom can chat all day.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. And we’ll try and give you a hard answer when we can. It is difficult. I think we’re doing quite well giving a firm answer oN what we would [crosstalk 00:33:57],

Alex Curtis:
Well, it’s like saying, oh, it’s like someone doing an episode on what mortgage should I have?

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You can’t answer that in a one in a one sentence thing, obviously.

Alex Curtis:
No.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah, no, good analogy.

Alex Curtis:
Yeah. If we get any reviews where saying, “Oh, these guys just talk nonsense, they don’t give us a proper answer,” and you were a mortgage broker, then shame on you.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah. I was going to say, “What mortgage should I have?”

Alex Curtis:
Yeah. We’ll just, we’ll actually set up a bot just to send you emails every day. What mortgage should I have? What mortgage should I have? Leave nice reviews [crosstalk 00:34:28].

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah, very good.

Alex Curtis:
Nice one.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Yeah.

Alex Curtis:
And we will see everyone soon, glistening next week. See you later.

Tom Maplethorpe:
Reach your later, bye.

Alex Curtis:
Bye.

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